Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hey, unless you've been under a rut recently, or you've been lost somewhere on another planet, you have to be familiar with the new genre, which is blowing up hip hop known as Brooklyn drill today. In our first episode of let's talk about addiction. We evaluate this genre from its very origins in the streets of Chicago. And our experts will talk about how Brooklyn drill are otherwise known as Chicago drill or UK drill got started and how individuals who are working within this industry are looking to come up to get out and also to create a new means. And the question we want to find out is is this upwardly mobile pattern leading to increased rates of drug and alcohol addiction, as well as unnecessary violence and BI communities. You won't wanna miss this episode and now join us as we present the first episode of let's talk about addiction I'm GoPro.
Speaker 2 00:01:14 And it's a very interesting book that, um, I started reading, uh, and I have an audio book of it as well, uh, which talks about, you know, the, the drug culture and the violent culture violence culture in the, in the drill scene. So this is the book here it's called balloted bullet and it's by forest Stewart. Um, and, and it goes through the history of, of drill culture, uh, in the, from the it's in Chicago. And, and what this gentleman did was he embedded himself within, um, a group called the corner boys out in Chicago. And he, um, sort of used his time with them to analyze, um, what, you know, they were doing and why they did it. And I was blown away because, um, it's nothing was like what you would assume from following it today. He essentially made a point of showing that these guys are very, very savvy.
Speaker 2 00:02:16 And as you had pointed out last week, brother, Ty, on they, they, uh, are utilizing this as a means of, uh, you know, ascendancy out of their situation. Uh, this gentleman even went as far as to say that a lot of them, you know, the, the big thing that they crave is authenticity, but, um, a lot of them in their neighborhoods are not the way that they, the persona that they create on internet. I mean, and, and also the sad part was a lot of the things that we, I might almost take for granted they wanna aspire to. So it's like they have these two personas. One is the, the online persona, because that's what enables them to, um, to, to become famous and to do well. But then the other one is the behind the scenes persona where they wanna visit their mothers or, uh, they just wanna go, um, you know, get a, another degree or something in education, or they wanna go visit their, their kid's school to see a game that the kid is playing.
Speaker 2 00:03:19 And a lot of them did not have, um, because of prior issues didn't have licenses. So they couldn't get from one side of the town to the other safely because the guy said they would be, you know, people would attempt to harm them for either their affiliations or what they said in the music. And so the way, one of the ways he was able to connect is he became like a defacto driver for them. And he would agree to take them across town to other areas, or he would remove them, extract them from situations that had overheated, where there was a danger of retaliatory violence. So the coolest situation down, he would take them out, take them to a neutral spot, let things cool down. And this is how he developed this, this, this longer term friendship with them, very powerful book. Uh, I'm gonna share it with everybody cuz I, I think it might, you know, just in general, uh, if we pick up on this topic and go into, um, more detail and I think it directly impacts, um, what we're talking about because he mentions how a lot of these guys, um, you know, the drugs and the alcohol that they, they use in the community, it sorta numbs, uh, their, the reality that they have to face.
Speaker 2 00:04:34 It also helps get them amped and ready for the performances, the video shoots and the things that they have to deal with. And I, I think that that's something that we should talk about because it's something that's underlying, I think a lot of, um, what's going on, but this is a very, very complex issue, much more than I had anticipated. And it's a really good read. Um, so I'd like to pass that on, uh, to everyone to take a look at and you can bring it up for discussions. Sure. So folks, hi.
Speaker 3 00:05:04 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's funny that you should mention that because I was telling my son, um, I was talking to my son, um, about the music that he listens to. And I recognize that most of those young artists, they talk about using Oxys and fentanyls and Percocets and smoking and drinking. And this is the younger generation, like this is my son's age group, uh, that generation and a lot of them music, they talk about how they use the, um, Oxy and they use the fentanyl. And, um, there's another one that's real popular in the rap culture. That, what is that codeine? Thanks. Well, um,
Speaker 4 00:06:03 Clear up, I think,
Speaker 3 00:06:04 Right. <laugh> that's my son, you know? Um, and so it's funny that you should talk about how it gives them the motivation that they need. Um, but it also numbs the reality of what's happening in their lives and in their communities
Speaker 4 00:06:22 Shoot like, hell we, we should have your son on here. He he's he's involved already.
Speaker 3 00:06:32 Well that's because I, I communicate with my child. I listen to the music that he listens to. And the other thing is that my son always wants me to, um, he wants to share these things with me. Right. And, and it's funny because you know, when they're younger, you know, before the preteens, it's all about you and mommy, mommy can do all the things with you. And then the preteens, you know, until, you know, just about 1920 now, he didn't really want me involved, but now he shares a lot of what he enjoys, what he likes. He talks about, you know, why he likes those things, why he listens to that music, the influences that it has on him, how it helps him navigate and move through society. And so, yeah, Shahan, he shared a lot with me, uh, shares a lot with me movies. He likes books, he reads music, he listens to. So I'm on the flip side of mommy.
Speaker 2 00:07:40 Thank you for sharing that, Leah. And, um,
Speaker 5 00:07:43 It sound Ty shine, you know, um, sounds like, uh, when we, when we are discussing, if we, you know, we dwell into that particular topic again, um, it, you know, we, we always want to have, uh, someone that that's talking from experience and not just external knowledge and, uh, sounds like someone at some point that we can invite, you know, on, on, on our podcast to talk about his experience or, you know, maybe he has a couple of friends that, um, is, is experiencing the same kind of stuff. So it sounds like we used to think about that in the future,
Speaker 4 00:08:28 Right? Because it is interest how a Chicago genre music influences individuals around the, um, around the nation. Like you say, it started in Chicago, but there was the, uh, the big drill music scene in, in New York in with all the games. And, um, and, and, and, and it, it was deadly dead, right. Deadly dead in, in, in, in New York. Um, one, one thing I wanted to touch upon this, and I'm interested in you guys, thoughts is the fact that it, it almost seems like a, a two sword here, right. Where we have this music that's used, um, that, that, oh, I've got something white, right? <laugh> we have this music, right. That's used, um, as the means of encouragement for violence and destruction within the community. Right. But then we also hear the conversation of where we have this music that also, um, is a outlet, right?
Speaker 4 00:09:34 It's an outlet, it's a, it's a, it is a way up out of the community. So there's a certain way that you have to, that you can, you know, individuals, like you said, are savvy in which they begin to say, Hey, we can use this, this, um, facade, right. And this is, we can commoditize that. Right. And we could get up out the hood. People want to see violence, they wanna see conflict. And it's almost like you have some, some individuals that are really real involved in the street life. Right. And you have some individuals that how you say, um, that are cap, right. That, that, that, that, that I want, I shouldn't even say captain, that's too strong on a negative when I'm talking something where they're thinking about, we're moving, we're using this music that people are going gravitate towards this, and this is gonna, um, bring us a lot of streams on Instagram, or this is gonna get us into a, a record deal. And then I can move my family. I can move my sisters and brothers and aunties and uncles off the hood. I could buy my mother a car. So I, I was just kinda interested in you got you guys thoughts on
Speaker 3 00:10:49 That. My, my thoughts on that Tyshaun, uh, much like anything else that happens in the African American community violence is promoted. Right. And, and I'm wondering because, but I don't know, but I'm wondering if that's the only way that they're able to get record deals. That's the only way they're getting promoted. Right. Because if they go in a different direction and make a different type of music that doesn't speak to what the, um, the powers to be are looking for, right. Will they still get that same recognition? Will they get them? Same deals. Right. So I'm just wondering if it's not being strategically done way that it's being done. Right. Because we have the Michael Jacksons of the world. Right. And we know that most of what Michael Jackson did was fueled by his addiction.
Speaker 3 00:11:57 Right. And so we only found out the depth of his addiction once he died. Right. But nobody really gave a lot of thought to why is this man transforming himself from that of an African American man to that of something else? What else is going on behind the scenes? They weren't really interested. And what was going on with his mental illness or his mental health. Of course, it became widely talked about once he was gone. But again, I'm wondering how much of it's strategically done, because that is the only way that is the only way for them to prosper and move ahead, because it kinda justifies what, what white America would like to believe about African American or, or, you know, black and brown people.
Speaker 2 00:13:02 So, um, I, I, I agree. I, I was gonna add something, but Mr. Allen, I wanted to know, um, did you have a point you wanted to share, uh, with the group? Uh, I, I think what lay said, um, was, uh, right on point with a, um, a point that the author far as Stewart pointed out in the book, and I was gonna share that, but let Mr. Allen speak, uh,
Speaker 5 00:13:27 Um, I think if, if I, if I heard correct. Right. Um, I think I heard, um, you guys talk about, uh, the authenticity of certain rappers, um, and, and, and, and you as well, uh, Alfonso, when you, when you, um, talking about that book and you talk about that when you read it, it's not really, as it appears on the surface, cause when you dealt dwell in it, you see these different types of personalities. And it reminded me of, um, there was a rap battle, uh, between 50 cent and this rapper, um, what's his name?
Speaker 2 00:14:19 Chiro, that's the famous one.
Speaker 5 00:14:23 This cat really got down on 50 cent. Um, he made the one, uh, when he talked about, um, Zel had to get crooked to get it. Remember, uh, when he won the, um, you help me out, Ty,
Speaker 4 00:14:42 I'm talking, I'm like, I'm, I mean, 50, no, no Jada kid talking
Speaker 5 00:14:52 About Jada kiss. And they had had a rap battle and he really came down on 50 cent and he was talking about how he was perpetrating 50 cent. That is, you know, saying that, you know, he was this, uh, thug outta Brooklyn. But when he say, yo, you from Connecticut, you live in Connecticut. You know what I'm saying? You're not really that. So what that did in my ears anyways, is it took away, uh, uh, authenticity away from 50 cent, uh, about gangster rap. You know what I mean? Cause he was portraying himself as this gangster and uh, and J came out and said, no, no, no, be real. You ain't that he came out with it now he really talked about 'em real bad. And uh, so, and that's what I hear you guys talking about that some things and some of those folks are not as they appear, however, taking it from Leo's perspective. Yes. Here's a means, uh, to an end, you know, it is what sells record says what people want to hear now, here's we distinguishing from real live experiences that people are talking about or wrapping about. And we're talking about another group that, uh, imitating these experiences based on what they hear, because they don't actually have the actual experience.
Speaker 4 00:16:24 I think I
Speaker 5 00:16:26 Would, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 4 00:16:30 Yeah. I think, I think check this out. I, I, um, listening to, um, YouTube, uh, the other day and 50 said something to a member of Jada, um, rap group, which was the locks, uh, styles P and he, and he, he told style P he told him that if you weren't changed by money, then you didn't make enough money. Right. And I, and I thought that that was a very significant point because mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I guess the whole goal of using hip hop, I would say gym music and things like that is to actually move up out the hood to make enough money to where you're living. Good. Right. So, you know, um, yeah, so I, so it is like, but the problem is, that's what, that's, what I'm getting at the problem is, is that individual, not everybody sees it that way. Like there, there are in, there are individuals that literally take everything verbatim.
Speaker 4 00:17:34 They take it at face value so that they see if 21 Savage says I killed 21 people and I got away with it, guess what? Somebody's believing him. Right. Somebody's believing in him. And, and somebody is looking to kinda copycat or duplicate, uh, 21 Savage activity. And I read, I saw, um, in this video, um, that 21 Savage was like, you know, I don't, I don't, you know, I, the reason why I, 21 savages of hiphop, uh, youth, um, he's younger hip hop, uh, uh, artist right now out right popular. Um, he said, the reason why I, I, I talk about this stuff, the re uh, um, drugs and violence and sex and everything like that, he says, because he knows that it's sex. He knows that he knows that
Speaker 2 00:18:28 Everybody I wanted the welcome system, Melinda, I see that she joined and Rob is here. Welcome back. Um, uh, just to catch everybody up again, we, we're just, uh, on the topic right now of, um, uh, drum music. We were talking about the book by, um, Mr. Forest Stewart, uh, it's titled the ball of the bullet gangs, drill music and the power of online infamy and how this relates to, um, issues surrounding drug addiction, uh, at violence and also, um, popularity and upward mobility. Um, these are all intertwined lay had provided an excellent piece, uh, earlier, um, which echoed sort of what brother Tashaun said about how utilizing, um, uh, this or individuals try to utilize this Mo music as a way out and how larger forces namely the industry, uh, is utilizing it, because it, it, it carry creates a lot of wealth for themselves, and it's a way to, uh, push this forward.
Speaker 2 00:19:32 And I think what we're trying to do is we're trying to talk about the consequences, both to the individual and the community at large. And also since ultimately as, um, individuals operating in the addiction space, we're trying to come up with solutions to the problem. Um, is this form of upward mobility contributing to our problem, making it worse, or, um, are we providing a legitimate means? And, and, and I just wanted to throw one thing out that came from the book. Uh, the author actually looked at the early 19th century in France. They had a competition in which they would invite artists to participate. And what they noticed was that the artists that were connected had money and galleries and stuff like that, they would come up with work, which was very powerful. The poor artists couldn't afford that. So the way that they made their works get noticed was to exaggerate those aspects of their communities, which would distasteful.
Speaker 2 00:20:30 And in doing this, uh, they gained the attention of society at large, and then they were able to amplify. So whatever was thought to be grotesque or mean or undesirable, they flipped the switch and amplified that. And as a result, they gained tremendous success and notoriety and, and, and in the book. Uh, so Stewart makes the analogy that that's what happens today. And a lot of the young men and women who engage in, uh, we're talking about drill music, um, in Chicago, Joe, specifically, uh, they, they were doing this as a way to, um, take advantage of what they called the attention economy and what the attention economy is, is it's, what's created online by clicks and likes and favorites and all of these things and, and, and advertisers and individuals will pay lots of money to get in front of the folks who can attract that sort of attention. So if you have a viral video in this scene, currently, it's tremendous, um, in terms of what you can bring and you can literally change the life of yourself and all those affiliated with you. Uh, but at the cost, unfortunately of what's going on in the community, uh, I'll stop there before
Speaker 5 00:21:46 We go any further, um, uh, discussing anything. We gotta continue, um, with the, uh, uh, folks introducing themselves. Why, why they're here and say a little thing, cause we kind of got away from that. So, uh, we were, um, before we started talking, we were, um, we was getting ready, Rob, I think was getting ready to introduce himself, Rob. So Rob, you have, you have the, I'm gonna put myself on mute and you have the speaker, the mic.
Speaker 4 00:22:18 Okay. Can you hear me clear? Okay. That's good. Um, I'm a public servant. I work for VOA, which is volunteers of America, um, co current house with, um, with men that suffers from substance abuse and mental health. Also I work for Boston healthcare for the homeless, um, a women's shelter, um, that has, um, mental health and also substance abuse problem. Um, I'm in this field because I took a class at, um, base, which is, um, um, for the BI community for, for our people to learn, to work with our people. That's in the diction field and people that look like us that understands the problems that we have, and we can relate to them because we have family members and, and, and been in the field with, with experience. Um, secondly, I, I would just like to, um, touch on the drill music. Um, I wasn't too abreast with it, but I've been looking into it.
Speaker 4 00:23:22 And the more I'm finding is that a lot of these kids have dreams of making it out and they make the money to make it out and they get killed or their life get cut down before they can actually make that change for them, for their family. They have a success in music that's going and everything, but they don't get to enjoy it. And, um, it's something like pop smoke. He's like still number two, three, top 10, but he's not able to enjoy the future of that labor. And it depends on what type of management that he had, whether his family even cuz he may not even own nothing on his, of his music, his own music. So, and one other thing I would just like to add is my son's 35. And I was like, yo man, what's up with Jill drill music. He's like, man, I heard so much of that stuff, man.
Speaker 4 00:24:14 I'm tired of hearing that. And then I have another son that's 30 and he's like, yo dad, that's popping what you know about that? And I said, I'm learning about it. So, um, you know, that's, that's my interest in it. I've been asking people, young men, Hey, what's up with your music? And I've been getting their feedback on it in the, that 19 to 30, they rocking with it that 30 to the 35 30. They, they kind of like over it. Um, and they trying to get their life together. I, I, I seen the scene. So since we've been talking about this real music, that's what I seen and you know, they got this new stuff called Tina, they got Molly, you know what I mean? Some of the stuff that was mentioned that wasn't mentioned, um, um, when we was talking about the drugs that's associated with it and you know, it's just like, um, it coincide with trap music, the trap music's after it.
Speaker 4 00:25:08 And it's like young Dolph out there in, um, I think a Tennessee that, that got cut down a lot of the, what I find and see they, when they are able to move their family out the community and move, um, the children, mother, grandmother, they actually come back and when they try to do good that's when they get God, you know what I mean? When they try to come back and pay homage to the homies and, and try to keep it real, you know what I mean? Keep that authenticity up. You, you know what I'm saying? That authenticity try to keep that, you know, um, that edge, like I, you know, I, I moved out, but I still come back. I show love. Um, I break people off. I finance some things that may be illegal cause in their drill music, some of the people come back and they finance some of the other guys that can't actually make a record deal or get a record deal, but not part of their entourage, but they finance their weed deal, their Coke deal, their heroin deal. And so they, that way they keep their ties like, yo, this is dos, you know, this like that. So he's still in the forefront of that under, under underground activity, but he's living above because he have record sales and stuff like that. So that's my take on, on some of this. Thank thank you.
Speaker 5 00:26:37 You thank you. Um, Leo,
Speaker 3 00:26:45 Good evening. I'm Layle I am here, um, as a guest, um, because I am a person with substance use disorder. I worked in the field of addiction services pretty much. Um, most of the 30 years that I've been in this process of recovery, I most recently graduated from base as well. Um, and I just wanted to participate in, you know, offer up my contribution
Speaker 5 00:27:23 Taha.
Speaker 4 00:27:28 Yeah. Um, once again, I'm just glad that, uh, you yourself, um, Mr. Allen and Dr. Alfonzo, that y'all kind of, that y'all put some, um, some ideas into action decided to make a platform, um, for, for BI black people, especially, uh, dealing with specific black issues. Um, I think it's, it's a, it is a necessity. It's a great platform. Um, so my name is Ty Sean Perryman. Um, I've been, I work, I graduat from the base class as well. Um, a person long term recovery, uh, got coming up on October 15 for be seven years, uh, been doing, um, uh, street outreach, uh, for who knows how long, you know, almost for like over 20 plus years, um, worked as a, uh, certified addiction recovery coach, um, working to become a licensed alcohol and drug counselor. Um, have a, a bachelor's in mass communications from a H P C U North Carolina, central university Eagle pride, Durham, North Carolina, shout out. And, um, you know, I'm, I'm here because, you know, I just, you know, I appreciate the platform. Um, and, um, I know that that there's a need for voices to be heard and, um, especially when it comes to, um, a bipo in, um, addiction recovery.
Speaker 5 00:29:00 Thank you. Thank you. Uh, sister Melinda,
Speaker 6 00:29:09 Sister Melinda pein, I'm a sister of St. Joseph of Springfield, Massachusetts. We're all over the country and around the world. I'm a, um, a Catholic religious, um, sister, um, seven years ago when I was in novice. Um, that's where you, when women who are entering religious order study, I selected, um, a position of ministry in a woman's, um, transitional home, um, women with alcohol and drug related issues. So that's when I, the second time I became face to face with, um, uh, addiction and how it affects, um, specifically women on the west side of Chicago. And so I became interested in, in how me as how I could, as an individual woman, woman help other women. So we set up, um, educational programs. We had a sewing program, we had a counseling program and I worked with another sister, uh, religious sister from another religious order, um, who was the director of the program.
Speaker 6 00:30:27 So that's how I became interested in it before I was a sister of St. Joseph, I, I was married and, um, the person that I married, um, was a, and he always said recovering because you're never recovered. He had been, um, sober. Um, his drug of choice was alcohol for, um, 20 years before I met him. And, um, our dating consisted of going to AA meetings. And so I just really learned, um, addiction and alcohol. I had not experienced any of this before. What I found out was that alcohol and drugs it's throughout, um, it, it, it's not selective. And I saw a lot of my colleagues in the rooms, a lot of teachers that I didn't know before I started going with him. So that's sort of how I became interested in, in working with people, um, journeying with them, listening to them, doing as much as I I could and can to help people that are, are struggling with, um, drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 6 00:31:42 And so I graduated from the, the base program. I did a little research on cuz I knew nothing about, I didn't even know what you were all talking about last week, drill what I didn't. So I looked it up and it seems like it, it it's in probably started in the Chicago area and the writer that the, the piece that I read, which, uh, history is always extremely important to me says that if you wanna talk about drill music, you have to talk about the culture of Chicago in the 19, um, fifties and sixties and 1965, when Martin Luther king came to Chicago, he, he was shocked to realize that black people in Chicago, it wasn't the same. It wasn't segregation like Jim Crow laws in Chicago. It was segregation for black people because of economics and their living situations. So he knew right away that the problems that he was talking about in the civil rights movement down south were not the same problems that, um, African Americans had specifically in the poorest of the poor areas of Chicago and some of the music and the themes come out of that division in Chicago.
Speaker 6 00:33:08 If, I mean, I only read, read one writer, but in the discussion of this, I would be very much interested in just going deeper and looking at the psychology of this music and like, where, where is it drawn from? Where historically, where does it come from? So, um, I decided to join the podcast because I was interested in the professional discussions that we are possibly going to be having. So, and I also graduated from the base program recently. That's
Speaker 5 00:33:47 Thank you. Thank you, uh, Alfonso.
Speaker 2 00:33:55 Hello everybody. My name's Alfonso brown Sono and I'm a recent base graduate. And I'm when I get a shout again to my steam colleagues, this, uh, level of discussion is, uh, tremendous. I enjoyed a lot. I'm a practicing clinician. Um, I run an addiction specialties clinic at new beginning health PC in Waymouth Massachusetts. We've done that for the last eight years. I also have a faculty appointment at Harvard medical school where I'm a practicing clinician, very, very much interested, um, in issues within the bipod community. Uh, as I relate to alcohol and drug addiction, uh, my kid, well, a kid, I spent my young adulthood, um, in New York city, uh, at the time of the crack epidemic, uh, personal experience in exposure to this, uh, individuals in my family dealt drugs, um, and also had many friends who went to jail and died as part of that.
Speaker 2 00:34:51 It lefted me a, a lifelong desire, uh, to try to utilize whatever means I had through, uh, work and exposure, um, through activities such as treatment and counseling, uh, to help individuals who are in recovery and to also better understand why these particular things seem to infiltrate our community and create so much problems for us. Um, so I, I've been blessed and thank very thankful for this format and this opportunity to work with my colleagues. I know all of you very well, and, and I know for the listeners out there, uh, this will be a treat because, uh, we have some very great minds here, um, who are gonna provide insight and information in real time.
Speaker 5 00:35:38 Thank you. Thank you. Um, I think we've, we've come about to the end, uh, of our time, but before we do, I want, I wanna, um, not talk about it, but let you guys know about, uh, next week's topic. I've taken the Liberty to, uh, come up with the first one. Um, this is of course from, from Alfonso, um, next week and I, and I'm pretty sure that everybody has a, uh, article on it. We're gonna talk, be talking about overdose, death rates that increased amongst African Americans, American Indians, and Alaska native people. So we're gonna really get down and really let's start talking about addiction. Okay. So that will be next week's topic. Okay. And until then, till next week at, uh, three o'clock, is it Alfonzo?
Speaker 2 00:36:46 It's three 30, sir. Three
Speaker 5 00:36:47 30. Oh, I was, I was on at three o'clock waiting. <laugh> OK.
Speaker 2 00:36:53 I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 00:36:54 Now 4 43. So we've been going almost hour and 15 minutes. Um, our podcast is for one hour is supposed to be from three 30 to four 30. So, um, remember, um, take a look at the article folks and I discuss it next week. Again, I repeat overdose death rates, rates that are increasing for African Americans, uh, American Indians and Alaska native folks, primarily the bipo, uh, communities.
Speaker 2 00:37:29 And if anybody doesn't have the article, just, just reach out, we can, um, send it. And Mr. Allen, is it okay to say also if people have related articles, they to feel free to, to review those?
Speaker 5 00:37:39 Yes. I would like for folks to be able to talk about a, uh, specific communities and their personal experiences with this, because I'm quite sure if we are those of us that's in this field, we all know folks either from, from, um, from a personal perspective or professional that have ex overdosed and died from, uh, drug overdose is not one of us in this field that doesn't know someone, you know, and we can talk about how that made us feel and, and, and the reason that, um, that, that, that, that, that cause a after X amount of time and recovery to use and overdose. So until next week, um, I will say have a good weekend everybody rest of the weekend that is, and stay healthy, stay cool, and, uh, be ready for.
